Posts by the pharmer

51

State your "epiphany moment " for leaving the WT

by caliber in

jw
friends

i have found some powerful reinforcements when people have stated their " epiphany moment "... please share some.. my turning pointing began when i was badly hurt by a person i had always viewed as a literal brother.

i realized that if his.

love was conditional.... if it was the case with him , then how about those i had less affection for and trust in ?.

the pharmer

(bookmarking)

87

FDS says - "No need to check our work. Besides, it will only make God angry."

by Crisis of Conscience in

though i no longer believe the fds is indeed appointed by god, i guess because of what has been taught to me all these years through the wtbts, i still make an effort to try and look at both sides.

and then i come across this number below, which is how i arrived at my title for this thread.

***w81 2/15 p.19 do we need help to understand the bible?***.

the pharmer

Significant information, thanks.

1

To answer, or not to answer, that is the question:

by the pharmer in

can anyone tell me if the following idea is taught or found specifically in any wtbts literature (and if so, where can i find it)?.

we must be very careful of how we allow others to label us.

sometimes the best answer we can give is no answer.. thanks!.

the pharmer

Can anyone tell me if the following idea is taught or found specifically in any WTBTS literature (and if so, where can I find it)?

We must be very careful of how we allow others to label us. Sometimes the best answer we can give is no answer.

Thanks!

Pharmer

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

Listener, thank you for those kind, encouraging words! I will definitely be taking a look at those threads.

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

I don't know why, but I can't get the last sections to undo the italics. Sorry. Not trying to emphasize anything.

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

Listener,

I appreciate your two cents.

Yes, here is the approach:

I had said to this person,

Here’s an idea, maybe when discussing these sorts of things we should essentially take a piece of paper and make 3 columns – the middle one strictly containing the bible’s writings ‘as is’. Then, after reading those passages or sections of scripture, fill in one of the other columns with how we understood it. The remaining column would be reserved for any understanding by an individual or group that we wish to examine, but it must be their understanding as described by them. In doing this, we should compare everything to the middle column, as it is the ultimate written authority, and avoid making the mistake of assuming our own understanding is infallible. Good plan?

Using this method, I think we should take Galatians (as written) and essentially make it the middle column, and take our own understanding of it and put it in our own column (it should not conflict with the middle column in any way, and if it does we have each other to hold one another accountable to that). The remaining column is reserved for whatever we are examining (a specific belief or whatever), which may or may not have anything to do with the scriptures in the middle column. Whatever we put in that remaining column to test, ought to be tested against the middle one and we can see if and how it holds up.

Listener, I highlighted the portions I think answer your questions and suggestions. Let me know if it doesn't. I figured some people might want more details.

I agree with you, this was not a book that was chosen to shed light on their views, but rather, it was part of another conversation we had when discussing the Bible and how many organizations (including Mormonism and WTBTS) take the stand that one must come to their exclusive group and follow their works of law in order to attain the fullest benefits (ultimately salvation). A certain point of view entered into that conversation -- justification (to God) by faith, not works -- and now that point of view is in the process of being tested. Gotta start somewhere. I acknowledged that in the process of testing, certain scriptures might be neutral or not applicable on the subject. We also realize that one might interpret things differently, but if we can identify the methods used in interpreting and understanding these things (since we will have put those understandings in our own words), even if we don't agree, we can aknowledge there is more than one way to understand written words, we will have at least understood each other's thought process in forming a conclusion. Perhaps, during the course of testing something, certain other scriptures might be more convincing at clearing up these areas of different interpretations -- perhaps.

Hope this helped make this seem more relevant.

Thanks

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

Understood. Nonetheless, I've appreciated your input!

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

No apologies necessary.

I do think I've come across the wrong way (blame it on my inability to communicate my thoughts clearly) and for that I apologize. I would like to clear something up. This isn't being approached as a debate (been there, done that, got nowhere with this individual...you're right, at the time they wanted to teach me). Believe me, this person has wanted me to examine JWs via the typical way, and it didn't take me long to realize how bias that was! Since then, they have agreed (to my surprise) that if we are going to examine beliefs, we need to test the different views as objectively as possible and see how it holds up to scrutiny. (Perhaps it is because there is a friendship that has developed over the past 1 and 1/2 years since that first experience.) We are trying to hold each other accountable. Normally this person would have dropped or changed the subject and not entered into an open examination like this.

I didn't mean to imply I thought you could tell me for certain what this person would do, sorry about that. Rather, I thought there might be someone out there (like you) who has perhaps looked at Galatians as a JW and addressed or fought against (or just maybe thought about) this mainstream belief. I though you could perhaps give a perspective I have not thought of that somehow makes Paul's meaning contradict what I see. From what I see, that is exactly what would have to happen in order to use Galatians to counter this belief. Personally, I don't know how there is any possible way this could be done, even if one takes his words out of context. But like you said, that doesn't mean it can't be done...

You said, Is there some way they can say that Galatians contradicts the point you are trying to highlight? Yes

Now you know, it's not that I'm trying to highlight it; we're trying to test it. I guess I asked the question poorly when thinking about what I was after. What I should have asked was, can you tell me some different ways that have been used by JWs to counter this central teaching of Paul's, where they use only Galatians to do so? I don't care if it's honest or not, that will come out upon scrutinizing the logic and reasoning. All I want to know is, in what ways do you know of that Galatians has been used to shoot down this belief? (edit) Maybe not shoot down, but counter.

Sorry for the confusion, thanks for you patience.

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

I don't mean to get off focus by addressing what you just said. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you (I will go back and read it more carefully when I get off work). You said, besides, Galatians isn't understood as teaching "justification by faith in Christ" without works by either Jehovah's Witnesses or "Christendom" in general. I thought it did pretty much teach this when I read it. I mean, isn't that what verse 16 in chapter 2 states?

Gal 2:16
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But back to what I was trying to determine, I'm not saying Galatians proves that justifcation is by faith in Christ and not by works (although that is what it says almost word for word), but rather, this individual wants to test this point of view (which, as you know, they do not believe) against all of scripture (including Galatians). Is there any possible way in their mind they can say that Galatians contradicts that point of view? It seems absurd to me to think they could since that point of view is about word-for-word what Paul stated and I cannot see anything in Galatians that contradicts it...and I'm trying to look for it.

21

Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

by the pharmer in

i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

the pharmer

Thanks JuanMiguel,

So, even if they can't reconcile their own belief with Paul's words, do you think there is any way the JW mindset can use Paul's message here (of justification by faith in Christ, not works) to counter the idea of justification by faith in Christ alone (without using other scripture)? In my mind, this seems like an obsurd question for me to have to ask, but...